Planning and Zoning Meeting Agendas and Minutes

Every effort is made to ensure that the Agendas and Minutes provided on this and subsequent pages is timely and correct; however, users should keep in mind that this information is provided only as a public convenience. In any case where legal reliance on information is required, the official records of the City of Ballwin should be consulted.

Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting

Meeting Agenda

PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSION MEETING
Held at the Donald “red” loehr police and court center
300 PARK DRIVE
 
April 1, 2013 - 7:00 P.M.

AGENDA / BRIEFS

 1. Call to Order

 2. Approval of Minutes 

 3. SUE 13-01 – Special Use Exception
  (Alcoholic Beverage Sales by the Drink for Consumption on the Premises Where Sold)
  Schnuck Markets Inc, 15425 Manchester Rd, Ballwin MO  63011
  Petitioner:  Mr. Robert Wiegert, Schnuck Markets Inc, 11420 Lackland Rd, St Louis MO 63146

Schnuck Markets is proposing to sell alcoholic beverages by the drink for consumption on the premises where sold at its grocery store facility at 15425 Manchester Rd in Ballwin Plaza. 

 4. SUE 13-02 – Special Use Exception
  (Alcoholic Beverage Sales by the Drink for Consumption on the Premises Where Sold)
  Schnuck Markets Inc, 2511 Kehrs Mill Rd, Ballwin MO  63011
  Petitioner:  Mr. Robert Wiegert, Schnuck Markets Inc, 11420 Lackland Rd, St Louis MO 63146

Schnuck Markets is proposing to sell alcoholic beverages by the drink for consumption on the premises where sold at its grocery store facility at 2511 Kehrs Mill Rd. 

 5. Z 13-01 – Zoning Ordinance Change (Site Plan Amendment)
  Ballwin Grove, 14450 Clayton Rd, Ballwin MO  63011
  Petitioner:  Mr. Daniel Thies, Clayton Henry LLC, 16650 Chesterfield Grove Rd, Chesterfield MO  63005  

The Clayton Henry LLC is requesting an amendment to Ordinance 09-20, and is proposing to amend the development plan of Ballwin Grove Plaza to allow the construction of an additional 22 parking spaces by shrinking the size of the landscaped islands and replacing the greens space with additional pavement.  This plan revision also proposes to change the improvements around the monument feature by eliminating the surrounding sidewalk, benches and some rock wall elements and substituting alternative landscaping to form a backdrop.

 6.  Adjournment

Meeting Minutes

RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
MINUTES OF THE PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING
CITY OF BALLWIN – 300 PARK DRIVE

April 1, 2013


The meeting of the Planning and Zoning Commission was called to order by Acting Chairman Frank Karr at 7:00 p.m. Members in attendance were:

PRESENT                                                ABSENT
Chairman Michael Wind                   Commissioner Chris Wright
Secretary Frank Karr                      Alderman Richard Boerner
Commissioner Lynn Goetz
Commissioner John Schwent
Commissioner Sue Theodore
Commissioner Mike Utt
Commissioner Mark Weaver
Mayor Tim Pogue

Assistant City Administrator/City Planner Thomas Aiken
City Attorney Robert E. Jones 

Approval of Minutes

A motion was made by Secretary Karr and seconded by Commissioner Weaver to approve the minutes of the March 4, 2013 meeting of the Planning & Zoning Commission as submitted. The motion received unanimous approval from the Commission members present. Chairman Wind abstained.

SUE 13-01 – Special Use Exception
(Alcoholic Beverage Sales by the Drink for Consumption on the Premises Where Sold)
Schnuck Markets Inc, 15425 Manchester Rd, Ballwin MO 63011
Petitioner: Mr. Robert Wiegert, Schnuck Markets Inc, 11420 Lackland Rd, St Louis MO 63146

Mr. Robert Wiegert, associate general counsel and managing officer for licensing for Schnucks, addressed the Commission, requesting approval for the special use exception. Mr. Wiegert said this request for the two Schnucks stores in Ballwin is being made to enhance the shopping experience of their customers. Schnucks has similar licensing in the Des Peres, Wildwood, downtown St. Louis, and Columbia, Missouri stores.

Chairman Wind asked where the sales of drinks by the glass would take place in the store. Mr. Wiegert said there is a community room at the front of the store. The intent is to allow consumption on the prem-ise. The intent of this is not to operate as a bar or sell drinks individually, but it will allow a customer to buy a glass of wine or beer product as a sample.

Chairman Wind raised the concern about consumption outside of the building. Mr. Wiegert said there are no outdoor facilities at the Manchester store set up for outside dining. Chairman Wind asked if the peti-tioner would be willing to accept being restricted to the inside of the building. Mr. Wiegert said he would prefer not to have that restriction. Other stores have had barbecues which included the outdoor portion of the premises. He feels this restriction would negatively impact the experience the petitioner is trying to develop.

Mayor Pogue asked City Planner Aiken to discuss the state’s definition for this liquor license as it relates to Ballwin’s regulations for picnic permits and such events. Mr. Aiken asked Mr. Wiegert if he has pur-sued this question with the state under the license that they will issue. Mr. Wiegert said that he had not done this. Mr. Aiken said in his experience, the state requires a picnic license for sales outside of the building in addition to the liquor license for interior sales. Mr. Wiegert said that the Des Peres and down-town stores have outdoor seating areas that are included in the licenses. Mr. Aiken said that in his discus-sion with state representatives, outdoor seating areas are included; however, anything beyond that (park-ing lot, etc.) requires the special license. City Planner Aiken said it is confusing because Ballwin’s definition of “premises” is very broad and covers the entire property.

Mr. Wiegert said that the picnic event license would have to be obtained at the Manchester Road store since there is no outdoor seating.

Secretary Karr asked if there are limitations to the frequency of a picnic license. City Attorney Jones said the regulations state “no more than seven days by any organization in any physical year.” Mr. Wiegert said that from the petitioner’s perspective, this is more limiting than is preferred.

Mayor Pogue said he would have a concern with changing what the state already defines as the premise with regard to liquor licensing. The state regulations would limit this store to sales inside the store only, unless a special permit is issued by both the City of Ballwin and the State of Missouri.

Commissioner Goetz asked if the Schnucks stores that are open 24 hours would be required to follow the rules regarding hours for sale of liquor. City Attorney Jones said they would be required to do so.

Chairman Wind opened the public hearing and asked if anyone wished to speak in opposition to the peti-tion. No one came forward. Chairman Wind asked if anyone wished to speak in favor of the petition. No one came forward, and Chairman Wind declared the public hearing closed.

Mayor Pogue made a motion to recommend approval of Petition SUE 13-01 to the Board of Aldermen. Commissioner Utt seconded the motion, which received unanimous approval from the Commission mem-bers present.

SUE 13-02 – Special Use Exception 
(Alcoholic Beverage Sales by the Drink for Consumption on the Premises Where Sold)
Schnuck Markets Inc, 2511 Kehrs Mill Rd, Ballwin MO 63011
Petitioner: Mr. Robert Wiegert, Schnuck Markets Inc, 11420 Lackland Rd, St Louis MO 63146

Mr. Robert Wiegert again addressed the Commission, requesting approval for the special use exception. He said there is currently outdoor seating for 40 people at this location.

Mayor Pogue said that correspondence was received from neighboring residents, who had concerns re-garding the possibility of music outside. Mr. Pogue said that Schnucks does not have a permit that allows them to have outdoor entertainment, so that will not be an issue.

Commissioner Utt asked what the outdoor seating is used for currently. Mr. Wiegert said it is used for outdoor dining. Commissioner Weaver asked if this location has a restaurant. Mr. Wiegert said it does not have a separate service restaurant. Secretary Karr asked about indoor seating. Mr. Wiegert said there is some indoor seating. Commissioner Goetz asked if the store employs a bartender to serve their cus-tomers. Mr. Wiegert said no, there is no bartending as such. Commissioner Weaver asked if there is in-store security. Mr. Wiegert said yes. Commissioner Weaver asked if, with this license, a customer could buy a six-pack and drink it as they shop. Mr. Wiegert said theoretically, yes, but that is not the intent of this petition. Commissioner Goetz asked if the petitioner is in agreement that the in-store security per-sonnel should not tolerate that type of activity. Mr. Wiegert said yes.

Chairman Wind asked about consumption of alcohol in the parking lot. Mr. Wiegert said that the “out-door area” would include the outdoor seating area, but not the parking lot. Mayor Pogue noted that if customers were sitting in or around their vehicles consuming alcohol, they would be asked to leave, as that would violate the store’s state liquor license.

Mr. Wiegert assured the Commission that Schnucks is not attempting to become a bar. The petitioner has held similar liquor licensing in its other stores for approximately four years and there have been no prob-lems. Commissioner Goetz asked Mr. Wiegert, “What business is [Schnucks] in?” Mr. Wiegert responded that Schnucks is a purveyor of food, and the pairing of food and alcohol - wine, as well as craft beers - has become very much a part of that business. Mr. Goetz asked if the petitioner plans to sell hard liquor also. Mr. Wiegert said that since the store carries spirits, that could be sold also, but it has not been done. Chairman Wind noted that the liquor license doesn’t restrict the type of alcohol sold. Chairman Goetz asked how the store will sell mixed drinks without having a bartender. Mr. Wiegert said the only store they have that sells mixed drinks is their Culinaria store, which has a bar facility.

Commissioner Goetz asked if a customer samples a glass of wine, can the opened bottle be taken home or does it have to be left behind? Mr. Wiegert said the customer is allowed to recork it and remove it from the premises. City Planner Aiken said that can be done at any restaurant. City Attorney Jones said there are some conditions, such as proof of purchase, and the bottle must be sealed.

Chairman Wind opened the public hearing and said that he had letters from two residents and asked if they were in the audience and wished to speak. Neither Ms. Meador or Mr. Matlock came forward. Chairman Wind asked if anyone else wished to speak in opposition to the petition.

Mr. Mark Harder, 542 Lering Dr, Ward 2 Alderman, addressed the Commission on behalf of his constituents and Ward 2 Alderman Shamed Dogan. Mr. Harder said that both stores are located in Ward 2. He said he and Mr. Dogan have heard concerns from residents regarding these petitions. The major concern is drinking outside of the buildings. Other concerns include proximity to neighboring residences, and in the case of the Kehrs Mill store, nearby schools. The potential for noise is another concern, as is litter – are there enough receptacles? How will the stores enforce containing the alcohol consumption to the “designated areas”?

Mr. Jeff Gidday, 15963 Cypress Trace Ct, addressed the Commission, saying this is a grocery store, not a pub. How is business enhanced by selling alcohol by the drink? He is concerned about this ex-panding into a profitable use. He feels it is a slippery slope.

Mr. Dennis Firestone, 2303 Eagles Glen Ct, addressed the Commission. He feels this is not an appro-priate use at this location. He is also concerned about the noise.

Chairman Wind asked if anyone else wished to speak in opposition to the petition, and when no one came forward, he closed the public hearing.

Chairman Wind said that he feels the neighbors have a valid concern regarding the noise issue. He said when people drink, they get noisy, and the noise can travel across the parking lot, over the fence, and into the neighbor’s back yards. Chairman Wind said he would be in favor of approving the petition but re-stricting it to the inside of the store. Mr. Wiegert responded that he feels the noise concern is premature and speculative. Chairman Wind said he feels customers not being able to consume alcohol outside would not adversely affect Schnucks’ business, but it would adversely affect the neighboring residents.

Mayor Pogue said that nothing would stop customers from consuming alcohol inside, and then joining friends out on the patio. Chairman Wind said that allowing alcohol consumption outside increases the risk for noise. Mr. Wiegert reiterated that Schnucks would not be operating as a bar or tavern, and granting this license would not increase the noise to a point where it could not be addressed. Chairman Wind said that he doesn’t have a problem granting the license for consumption inside the store. He said that he feels consuming it outside the store will increase the noise level. Commissioner Utt agreed.
Chairman Wind asked if there is a problem with attaching such a restriction to their recommendation. City Attorney Jones said the Planning & Zoning Commission is allowed to make a recommendation with a limiting factor, but the Board of Aldermen make the final decision.

Mayor Pogue asked what the penalty would be if Schnucks did start allowing outside consumption. City Planner Aiken said it would be a zoning code violation of the special use exception.

Mr. Aiken noted that since this Schnucks opened late in the season last year, there hasn’t been much op-portunity for the outdoor area to be used, so there isn’t much history as far as noise. Chairman Wind said that due to the location of the store near homes and schools, he feels that it makes sense to comply with the neighbor’s request. He doesn’t feel that it will affect Schnucks adversely.

Secretary Karr asked if a time restraint could be put in place to measure the amount of noise. Chairman Wind said the liquor license has to be renewed by the City annually, at which time the public has the op-portunity to bring forth concerns about noise levels, etc. At that time, the City has the option not to renew the liquor license. Mr. Wiegert reiterated that Schnucks is not trying to be a bar, and said that the petition-er would ask that the City approved the special use exception with no restrictions and use the renewal to address any problems that may arise.

Commissioner Goetz asked if the petitioner would be willing to stop selling alcohol by the drink at 9:00 pm. Mayor Pogue said that he was thinking about that same timeframe. People who want a drink with dinner would probably finish earlier, and those who want a drink after 9:00 pm are probably not going to go to Schnucks. Commissioner Theodore clarified that this discussion was in reference to outside sales. Commissioner Goetz said that he was referring to all sales, but he would accept the 9:00 pm restriction for outside sales.

Commissioner Theodore asked Secretary Karr if he meant to allow the petition with the restriction for indoor use only for a year to obtain a baseline for noise before outside sales are allowed. Secretary Karr said yes. Mayor Pogue noted that the police department checks for complaints before liquor license re-newal. Chairman Wind asked if the petitioner would have to come back before the Planning & Zoning Commission at that point. City Attorney Jones said it would be an amendment to the SUE, so the peti-tioner would have to come back to the Planning & Zoning Commission. The final decision, however, rests with the Board of Aldermen.

Chairman Wind made a motion to recommend approval of Petition SUE 13-02 to the Board of Aldermen, with the restriction that consumption by the drink be limited to the interior of the building. Commissioner Utt seconded the motion. A voice vote was taken with the following result: Aye – Wind, Karr, Schwent, Theodore, Utt, Weaver, and Pogue. Nay – Goetz. The motion passed.

Z 13-01 – Zoning Ordinance Change (Site Plan Amendment)
Ballwin Grove, 14450 Clayton Rd, Ballwin MO 63011
Petitioner: Mr. Daniel Thies, Clayton Henry LLC, 16650 Chesterfield Grove Rd, Chesterfield MO 63005

Mr. Bill Biermann addressed the Commission on behalf of the petitioner, requesting approval to amend the site plan for the Ballwin Grove shopping plaza to provide more parking. The petitioner is seeking a solution that allows for an additional 22 spaces and also works for the City and the fire department. The second part of the petition involves the landscaping around the gateway monument at the corner of Henry and Clayton Roads.

Chairman Wind noted that there is a code requirement for a landscaped island for every 20 parking spac-es. Mr. Biermann asked if that requirement is absolute. City Planner Aiken said that it is an ordinance requirement, not a comprehensive plan recommendation. Mr. Biermann said the petitioner will figure out a way to make it work. He said with a salon opening, and the restaurants in the plaza wanting to open for lunch, the need for additional parking is imminent.

Chairman Wind asked about using the CVS parking lot. Mr. Biermann said that CVS is adamant about retaining their parking lot for their customers only.

Mr. Biermann said that one of the recommendations of the petition review report regarding removing the additional parking spaces if they are no longer needed. He said the petitioner’s preference is that the spaces remain in place, due to the prohibitive cost to remove them and restore the greenspace. Chairman Wind agreed that this request makes sense. Chairman Wind said that he would like the petitioner to pre-sent a landscaping plan to the Board of Aldermen.

Mayor Pogue said he would like to discuss the landmark feature. Mr. Biermann said the original plan called for a sidewalk to encircle the sculpture, with benches on each side. The petitioner is proposing to eliminate the sidewalk and plant tall grasses on the back side of the sculpture. The concern is that the sculpture is relatively thin, especially the detail on the trees, and having the sidewalk and benches will encourage people to get close to and handle the sculpture and potentially break pieces off. The thought is that landscaping will be less inviting.

Chairman Wind said tall grass is seasonal, and has to be cut down in the spring. Mr. Dan Thies, owner of Clayton Henry LLC, said that people have complained that the sculpture is hard to see. Mr. Thies said that placing tall grass plantings behind the sculpture will create a wall of sorts. The kind of grass the peti-tioner wants to plant will always be taller than the sculpture.

Chairman Wind asked if the benches could be placed by the sidewalk near the street. Mr. Thies said that the portion of the property he owns doesn’t go that far. He pointed out the small area that is an easement. Mr. Biermann said that CVS actually owns the property that the sculpture sits on.

Mayor Pogue said he respects the petitioner’s thoughts on the bench encouraging people to get closer to the sculpture. He would like to see a landscaping plan showing the details of what is being proposed.

Chairman Wind opened the public hearing and asked if anyone wished to speak in opposition to the peti-tion. No one came forward. Chairman Wind asked if anyone wished to speak in favor of the petition. No one came forward, and Chairman Wind declared the public hearing closed.

Mayor Pogue made a motion to recommend approval of Petition Z 13-01 to the Board of Aldermen, pro-vided that the petitioner provide a revised landscaping plan for the parking lot islands and around the monument, eliminate one of the 27 parking spaces to provide the break required by ordinance, look into reducing the island to the south to provide two additional spaces, and to include the fire lanes as part of the amended site development plan. Chairman Wind seconded the motion, which received unanimous approval from the Commission members present.

Adjournment

A motion was made by Commissioner Utt and seconded by Mayor Pogue to adjourn the meeting. The motion received unanimous approval, and the meeting was adjourned at 8:40 p.m.

Michael Wind, Chairman
Planning & Zoning Commission